Vox Day
I just had a conversation with the devil.
Well, from what people have been posting, he seemed like the devil. But I know how the internet can be. Mitt Romney at one time was the devil. Now, I think he’s been degraded in those quarters to janitor of the hot place. Yeah, that one Romney who is out raising tons of money to help fix blindness among the poorest of the poor, that evil son-of-a-gun.
So when I saw there was a new head honcho in town, I decided to see what he was all about.
I did try reading various posts on the internet, but after a dozen or so of those, I realized it would just be easier to go to the source. And so I went to Vox Day’s website and clicked the contact link, which popped up an email.
I asked Day if he’d mind answering a few questions.
He agreed.
What you will read below is our conversation, arranged for easy reading.
Why am I doing this?
Well, who doesn’t want to scoop the devil? But beyond that, I agree with George R. R. Martin: internet conversations that are not moderated to maintain a tone of respectful disagreement are a bane upon us all. Actually, Martin said they were part of the devil’s alimentary canal, but I didn’t want to confuse the topic.
So I’d read a number of posts that Day had made and others folks had made about Day and saw all the bad juju going back and forth. And I wanted to know what this guy actually believed. Once I understood that, if I disagreed, then I could disagree in a way that I think is actually productive.
We talked about some of his views on two subjects—race and women. Are his ideas provocative? Well, you need to know what they are before you decide.
Conversation
Brown
Vox,
I’m following the conversation about the Hugos. Many of the conversations claim you are a racist and misogynist. Knowing how labels and slurs can magically become fact, I wanted to go to the source and understand what it is you truly believe. I’ve done some reading on your site. I’ve seen attack pieces such as this http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Theodore_Beale#cite_note-real-ass-13.
But it’s all so scattershot and snippets out of context. I’m wondering if you might answer some questions. If so, my first questions are about your views on race.
- Do you believe Black Africans have, in general, less genetic potential for intelligence than White Europeans?
- Do you believe the same for the darker Asians like those from India or Indonesia?
- Which genetic group has the highest genetic potential for intelligence at this time?
- You mention three genetic groups here http://voxday.blogspot.com/2014/01/more-highly-evolved.html. Are you talking about Europe/Asia, Africa, the Americas?
Day
Hi John,
My response to those who claim I am racist or misogynist is simple: why do you reject science, history, and logic? It is not hateful to be scientifically literate, historically aware, and logically correct.
- Pure Homo sapiens sapiens lack Homo neanderthalus and Homo denisova genes which appear to have modestly increased the base genetic potential for intelligence. These genetic differences may explain the observed IQ gap between various human population groups as well as various differences in average brain weights and skull sizes.
- Yes, East Asians have been observed to have considerably higher IQs than Southeast Asians.
- The Chinese. Their average IQ is higher than the Ashkenazi Jews, who are genetically a refined group of Semitic-Italian crosses. To be more specific, the highest average IQ is found in Singapore.
- No, the genetic groups are the Homo sapiens sapiens/Homo neanderthalus crosses, the Homo sapiens sapiens/Homo neanderthalus/Homo denisova crosses, and the pure Homo sapiens sapiens. These broadly align with Europe, Asia, and Africa, but not exactly.
You may find this to be a useful reference on the intelligence front: https://lesacreduprintemps19.files.wordpress.com/2012/08/intelligence-a-unifying-construct-for-the-social-sciences-richard-lynn-and-tatu-vanhanen.pdf
Brown
Let me see if I’ve captured your overall approach. You feel it’s important to examine and conduct science without regard to political correctness. For example, if Vanhanen and Lynn say IQ is genetic, you feel the most appropriate thing to do is not attack them for being racists, but simply examine their data and conclusions dispassionately. It’s important to question it. Argue with it. Try to falsify, as we do with any other scientific claim. But not dismiss it simply on the basis that it doesn’t agree with our what we feel is morally right. Correct?
Day
Yes. Science and history and logic exist regardless of whether we are happy about them or not. We have to take them into account.
Brown
It appears the Lynn & Vanhanen book suggests the genetic IQ differences were caused, not by Homo crosses, but by natural selection operating in colder climates over long periods of time. Can you provide another reference that discusses the DNA tracing and IQ correlation of the various crosses?
Day
There are many articles on the Internet about DNA and IQ, I suggest you simply search them out and read a few. The data is conclusive, the rationale explaining the data is not.
Brown
I’m not sure I understand what you mean when you said the rationale explaining the data is not conclusive. What do you mean by that?
Day
Regarding rationale, the data is beyond dispute. But we cannot explain why the data is the way that it is, we can only construct various explanatory hypotheses. Historical explanations are, for the most part, scientific fairy tales, literal science fiction.
Brown
I read your comment to Jemisin about African exposure to Greco-Roman culture. It seems you’re suggesting societies can’t make large change their culture (values and beliefs) over a few generations, or within one generation. Is that what you’re claiming? It doesn’t seem like you’re making a genetic-intelligence argument since 1,000-2,000 years seems too short for any type of significant evolution. Of course, if it’s a cultural argument, then I don’t see how it’s possible to say it’s impossible for a bunch of Jemisons to accomplish this since she was raised with the Western culture. Confused on your base point here.
Day
Yes, I am claiming that societies are incapable of moving from full primitivism to full civilization within the time frame that primitive African societies have been in contact with what we consider to be civilization. It is a genetic argument. It takes that long to kill off or otherwise suppress the breeding of the excessively violent and short-time preferenced. African-American men are 500 times more likely to possess a gene variant that is linked to violence and aggression than white American men.
Brown
Two more questions. It doesn’t sound like you’re against immigration per se. You just think that if a society wants to continue, they need to breed. Right?
Day
I am against large-scale immigration, particularly population-replacement immigration. Limited immigration, no problem.
Brown
I suspect someone is going to wonder if your ideas on race and IQ and violence mean you favor some type of eugenics program. So let me ask you: do you believe in selective breeding or sterilization? If so, would that be to promote the Homo crosses you think are better? Or just any trait from any group you think is superior?
Day
No, I am not a eugenicist. I oppose forced selective breeding and sterilization. However, I also oppose dysgenic and dyscivic social policies, which is presently what we have across most of the West.
Brown
As much as I want to ask more about what you consider dysgenic and dyscivic policies, I think it would just lead to another topic, which would lead to another. Let’s talk about your views on women. Here are my initial questions.
- Do you believe a country is better off when women cannot vote?
- Do you believe a country is better off when women are not afforded equal education opportunities as men?
- What are the top topics of education do you think would be beneficial for women?
- I’ve read this post http://voxday.blogspot.ca/2012/06/scientist-beats-up-pz.html. It sounds like you think the main objective of a country or culture with regards to women should be to reduce female promiscuity (not necessarily male promiscuity) and increase the number of children each female bears. Is that correct?
- Referring to that same post, are you saying that genital mutilation and acid burnings are legitimate ways to treat women? Or are you saying that they are bad things, but that the societies that do such things have lower female promiscuity rates and higher fertility rates, and so it’s a small price to pay?
Day
- Yes, in a representative democracy. However, note that I favor universal direct democracy and the jury is out there.
- It depends. It increasingly appears that a society is improved by widespread female education through high school, and harmed by it beyond that level. If you look at the demographics, a society that sends its women to college stops breeding. How this is supposed to benefit a society, I do not understand.
- Again, it depends. If a society is demographically dying, then yes, it had better do something to get its birth rate up or it will cease to exist. This isn’t rocket science. If a society is stable or growing demographically, it has no need to concern itself with such policies.
- You appear to have misread the post. PZ Myers claimed that there was no rational case to be made for the Taliban’s activities. I responded by demonstrating that the Taliban’s behavior is entirely rational, it is merely the consequence of different objectives and ruthlessness in pursuing them. But the mere fact that I am capable of observing a logical syllogism does not mean I share the assumptions involved or advocate the conclusion. Considering that the Taliban defeated the Soviets and appear to have outlasted NATO, I think it is remarkably stupid to dismiss them as irrational simply because they are willing to defend their way of life.
Brown
Even though it appears I misread the exchange with PZ Myers, your answers to 2 and 3 suggest you prioritize fertility rates as the main goal a society should have towards women. As long as the population is stable or growing, you feel a society can examine other goals or objectives. But only if those goals or policies do not negatively impact the population rate. Correct?
Day
Yes. The NATIVE population rate. Immigration is used to cover up demographic decline, but it changes the nation.
Brown
Okay, what’s the reason you feel women shouldn’t vote in a representative democracy? And do you think only certain types of males should vote?
Day
The reason women shouldn’t vote in a representative democracy is they are significantly inclined to vote for whomever they would rather f***. Hence the studies about height and hair being relevant to US presidential politics. That’s why women’s suffrage was pushed by the Communists and why it is the first plank of the Fascist Manifesto.
In a representative system, yes, only certain types of males should vote. And before you leap to any silly conclusions, please keep in mind that I have lived most of my life in political systems where I am not allowed to vote. Voting does not equal maximizing freedom and liberty.
Brown
First, what types of males do you think should vote in a representative government and what’s the main reason why?
Second, do you believe large numbers of males will vote based on sexual attractiveness as well when females are running for office?
Day
Men who demonstrate sufficient long-term orientation and a willingness to put the national interest above self-interest.
No, men aren’t wired the same way.
Brown
How would you identify the types of men you mention? Military or law enforcement service? How would you determine who had a long-term view of things?
Day
I have never given any thought to how such men would be identified. Every method is bound to fail in time.
Personally, I’d like to see direct democracy tried. We now have the technology, and it would be MUCH harder to corrupt than representative democracy. At least we don’t know exactly HOW it would fail.
Brown
Vox,
This has been really helpful to me. I think it would be helpful to others wanting to understand you. Agreeing, of course, is a different matter. But that’s a different subject. Would you be okay with me posting this conversation on my site?
Day
Sure, do as you see fit. The usual suspects will have their own hissy fits, but that’s of no concern to me. I find it amusing when people tell me they disagree with some of these things. Do they not understand that it is not me with whom they are disagreeing, but reality? Why people can understand that if pandas don’t breed, they will go extinct, but fail to grasp the same thing is true of nations is beyond me.
Comments
You will notice I wasn’t trying to challenge his ideas. Does that mean I agree with them lock, stock, and barrel?
No. I’m very skeptical about a lot of them.
But as I stated above, before I agree or disagree with someone, I need to understand them. And the best way to understand someone is to ask questions, listen, and verify I’ve understood accurately. The worst way to understand is to start with an attack.
In this stage, the goal is not to trick someone. It’s not to convince them that they’ve contradicted themselves. It’s not to prove any point.
It’s to hear them out. And if there are things that don’t make sense, to ask questions of clarification.
But what do I think about his ideas?
Well, let’s look at them.
Scientific Inquiry
I have to agree with his idea that we should try to look at science dispassionately. I think it’s dumb to reject someone’s science simply because the results offend our sensibilities.
We reject science because there are issues with the data, or the experiments, or conclusions. We reject it because it doesn’t fit with the observations. Or because we can’t replicate the results, or because it fails to predict as it claimed it could. But we only hurt ourselves when we reject it because it doesn’t fit our current political beliefs.
Okay, fine. But what about his views on race and women?
The Rhetoric of Offense
Well, they’re bound to rile feathers. And Day sometimes seems to go out of his way to state them in a way he knows is offensive. I didn’t feel he did that with me. But if you read the links above, you can see he does employ it with others.
Here’s my take on this. The rhetoric of offense is different than the rhetoric of explication. The latter is meant to explain. The former’s goal is to cause injury. It has no interest in sharing ideas. It only has interest in injuring someone, either to try to gain relief from an attack or to beat someone into submission, or because seeing folks get all riled up provides amusement.
A good portion of Day’s posts that I’ve read, admitting it’s nowhere near exhaustive, seem to contain a lot of the rhetoric of offense. And I think this dramatically undermines his ability to get others to consider his ideas, let alone believe them.
Sure, the attacks might bring like-minded folks to his side. But, for the most part, it does not provide the ground in which insight grows. Offense closes both parties off to challenges, biases, and ideas. It closes them off to new information. And new information is such an integral part of learning.
Some people say that tone shouldn’t matter. For example, you may lace the fact that the earth revolves around the sun with expletives, or say it to me sweetly, but the fact remains that the earth revolves around the sun. So asking for a more respectful tone is an ad hominine attack, a logical fallacy. It has nothing to do with the argument.
But here’s where I believe the anti-tone folks go wrong. Offense changes the message. When you call me a jackass, you’ve selected to promote one message over another. It doesn’t matter if you’ve couched your attack in a well-reasoned point because you have decided to no longer communicate your point. You’ve decided to communicate the offense instead.
Can’t we do both?
Not really. It’s like playing a country western tune of reason softly in the background while shoving a 110 decibel speaker blasting an annoying alarm in my face.
It’s like taking the statement “the cow jumped over the moon” and saying “the the the the the the the the the the the the the the” followed by a barely audible statement of the rest. All the receiver hears is “the”. And that’s what they respond to.
This means there’s no fallacy at play because there is no argument being communicated. Instead, you’ve communicated an attack. And invited a response to precisely the same.
If the speaker wants someone to consider his ideas, then he needs to speak in a way that invites consideration. I know, you can do that, and the receiver may still go into what sometimes feels like “a hissy fit.” We see this all the time, don’t we? Communication is indeed a two-way street. However, if the guy who was trying to explain decides to switch and respond with an attack, that’s his choice. But don’t call it explication or reason or conversation.
Day was perfectly polite to me. And I know it’s incredibly difficult sometimes to not attack when being attacked. I know his ideas, even when stated reasonably, will rile some folks. But it’s also true that he sometimes loads his communications with things he knows will offend. Things meant to injure and ridicule. Things which show little regard for others. I find it counterproductive. I think it’s wrong. But I also condemn the same tactic from the other side. And, yes, there is probably a time to use the rhetoric of offense, but that’s for another post.
Okay, but what about his beliefs, John?
Votes for Women
Do you agree it would be better for our nation if women didn’t vote?
No.
I’m not convinced men aren’t affected by charisma. What? When males get in a group, all are equally popular? Or popular only because of their ideas, not their looks, money, power, physical prowess, etc? Nor am I convinced that women can’t be long-term thinkers. I haven’t seen any science that supports that idea. And my personal experience has been just the opposite. The women I know think a lot about the future. Furthermore, when I include women in councils, we usually come up with much better ideas.
Now Day might suggest there’s science to look at. That’s his prerogative. I’m incredibly skeptical. But I think the most productive thing to do in reaction to his claim is to gauge whether you think it merits serious consideration. If it does, or if you’re curious, examine the evidence and report your results. If it doesn’t, just say you haven’t seen anything to suggest its worth looking into further.
Education for Women
What about his idea that the most important thing for a society is to maintain the population, which means the most important thing for a woman is to have babies, and that education undermines this and therefore should be avoided?
In one way, he’s right. If you want to maintain a certain population, you do indeed have to breed.
But if that’s your goal, I don’t see education in general as the determining factor. Mormon women have, as a group, much more education than the average female in the United States AND they have more babies. Lots more. I don’t think it’s education per se. I think it’s the values and beliefs some education fosters.
Some data on Mormon education and family sizes: http://www.fairmormon.org/perspectives/publications/education-scholarship-and-mormonism and http://www.pewforum.org/2009/07/24/a-portrait-of-mormons-in-the-us/#4
Race and Intelligence
What about his ideas on race and IQ?
There are some groups that are taller on average than others, some that are shorter. On the face of it, I don’t see why some groups might not have a genetic disposition to more of one kind of intelligence and other groups less. I haven’t looked into this much. I don’t know anything about Homo sapiens sapiens, Homo neanderthalus, Homo denisova, and the various crosses.
However, I do question if IQ isn’t more about nutrition and early learning. I wonder if IQ tests really measure intelligence or just one type of problem solving. And I’m skeptical that it’s really that big of a difference. Maybe it is. I admit my ignorance and curiosity on this topic openly.
Race and National Success
What about his claim that Homo sapiens sapiens, which he claims are what we find in Sub-Saharan Africa ancestry, have more genes for violence than we do up north and so can’t at the present time build as successful a society?
This one makes no sense to me. I don’t see a difference in violence levels. Like the Romans weren’t violent? Or the Germanic tribes? Hitler and all those that followed him didn’t do violence? Napoleon and his armies? I don’t see how we selected against violence and short-term thinking. I’m incredibly skeptical of these claims.
Now, it could be he needed more space to lay them out. After all, I wasn’t asking for evidence or a full treatise. Only what he believed. But as it stands right now, I’m betting the types of violence he’s looking at are driven more by culture than anything else. And I don’t believe people are genetically predisposed against democracy.
Frankly, the ideas laid out in Guns, Germs, and Steel seem more predictive to me about what makes peoples successful than Homo crosses. But of course I’m always open to new information. However, even if this claim is true, it’s a fallacy to peg each member of a group to the average. People lie along a bell curve for all sorts of things, and it might be that any one person or community or even nation might actually have less of this than another from a different group.
Bottom line
Vox Day wasn’t the devil, dang it.
He is someone who espouses a couple of ideas that I agree with and a number that seem flat out wrong to me. He appears to be someone who enjoys the rhetoric of offense. I may investigate some of his claims. I may not. I am new to the topic of genetics, and am curious. Whatever I do, I found it useful to try to see for myself what the man believes. One thing that he and I agree on is how we should react to claims made with the purpose, not to offend and injure, but to expand our knowledge.
Now, I have no idea what types of comments this post will bring. Please note that I did not ask Day for his sources, or to lay out all the evidence he feels backs up these beliefs. That’s much too big for this post. You can certainly share your ideas and the science you find compelling. But this is my site, and by golly I request that if you post and want to express disagreement, that you disagree respectfully. Name calling, high-octane expletives, etc. will not fly here. Any post that fails to avoid this will be deleted. You can certainly try again, but if any prove unwilling to abide by this rule, I’ll simply block you to save myself some time.
I am much more interested in a discussion here than attack and offense.
Gus,
I think it’s simply because the idea of celebrating stellar work has been drown out by everything else surrounding the issue. I’m betting these two were happy being recommended in such a public place, but probably didn’t intend to join a civil war. It’s probably morphed into something they didn’t realize it would.
Name calling is off limits. Watch the tone, Bob 🙂
Watch the name calling, Gary 🙂 We’re keeping it locked down on this thread.
I’ve been out, BigGaySteve. I’m not obliged to run on your time schedule 🙂
Nothing in your comment even approaches substance.
Is he the “former editor” because he wrote the book?
How do you troll on your own blog?
Erg…
Should read “one hundred million innocent civilians”
Regards….
I’m sure you’re right, John.
I’m also beginning to believe this is a watershed event. Things aren’t going to go back to the same old same old.
5% is 50 times more than 0.1%, not 500 times. Which of the three numbers {5%, 0.1%, 500} is incorrect?
Thank you, Mr. Brown. I come away with no more respect for Mr. Beale than I had beforehand, but based on his responses I know much better where he’s coming from. It’s good to confirm that the things he says when employing the rhetoric of offense match his underlying beliefs.
Which isn’t to say I agree with any of it; most seems pseudo-science and post-hoc rationalization to support his gut-based prejudices. But it’s good to know there’s nothing worth digging for beneath the sound and fury.
A Glock serves a genuine need, and functions reliably out of the box without gunsmithing.
Barbie dolls do not meet that criteria. And neither do 1911-pattern handguns.
How do you troll your own site? No, it’s not trolling.
I might be a bit jaded too, or at least cynical, but I don’t find any of the three of those surprising.
The reason for that is that education–i.e., value of intellectualism, knowledge and curiosity for its own sake–is not really what people mean when they say education. It’s really a stand-in for the ideology of having career first rather than family.
Mormons have none of that. It’s an open joke amongst Mormon women that many of them go to school to get their MRS degrees more than anything else. Education is valued, and yes, for its own sake, but it’s no prioritized higher than family.
So there is science to back up his claims and you refuse to look at it due to your ideology? How open is that? For example, just look at Match.com and other dating sites comparisons on who women contact and attempt to communicate with and who they say they want. Height and Looks ar always the top TWO indicators.
“Now Day might suggest there’s science to look at. That’s his prerogative. I’m incredibly skeptical. But I think the most productive thing to do in reaction to his claim is to gauge whether you think it merits serious consideration. If it does, or if you’re curious, examine the evidence and report your results. If it doesn’t, just say you haven’t seen anything to suggest its worth looking into further.”
Ragging on a gun because it’s popular is silly, although I’ll grant you, the fanboy’s do inspire a certain amount of ridicule. I don’t own one because I don’t like their grips. (haven’t tried the newest) and I have a fondness for 1911’s – which is a gun I never recommend to anyone.
No, he’s trolling the people (like me) who come to his site when one of his incendiary posts inevitably comes up in the news. Which is fine; it’s his site and he can say what he likes, and it’s a good way to generate traffic. But let’s not be disingenuous here.
Ah, I see what you did there Sarah . . .
Laid a little doggie pretzel in the middle of the road so someone will come along and step in it. Oh, sharp and its time for me to fetch my tinfoil . . . look out reason, in coming! 😉
I have no idea what your comment means. You’ll need to explain it better.
To be honest, what’s come across, in a neutral forum, is that Day’s ideas are, to keep it civil, delusional. The Puppies would do themselves a huge favour publicly, explicitly, and clearly distancing themselves from the association…even if, for a lot people, the battle’s already lost.
Come on, only if its pink with pearl gray grips . . . are we getting off-target here guys?
Not as well as my Kahr PM9 but who cares . . . time to turn on your laser maybe and find the target or maybe not . . .
By the way, Host John, nice job. I’m sticking around seems you favor discussion before percussion or concussion. Thx
🙂
I disagree, the sort of group Mr. Torgersen is engaging with will not care if he distances himself from them. They only care that he, and others like him, do not kowtow to their way of thinking. He is facing individuals who are literally arguing that his marriage to someone of another race than his somehow makes him racist. I am a white married to a minority who has had the same bull thrown my way. Guilt by association has to stop because all it does is shut down conversations. If there are people who are unable, or unwilling, to differentiate between the sad puppies slat and the rabid puppies slate it isn’t Mr. Torgersens fault or issue. It is the issue of the people unwilling to exercise critical thinking.
I’m inclined to agree about the voting comments. I remember back in 2008 when they took quotes on policies they would implement from McCain and Obama but falsely attributed to the other person.
Almost to a man, and woman, they found that the person agreed with the statement if it was attributed to their preferred candidate even if it had gone against their stated ideological belief.
Even more damning, they have researched the effect that the presidential debates have on the election and found that it is far lower than previously believed. Meaning that a candidate who was agreed to have done better didn’t see a corresponding increase in their poll ratings.
I’m looking at this and wondering if Mr. Beale’s tactics and strategy serve his goals, because he does not appear to convince people who do not hold his opinions to change their minds.
Assuming that convincing other people that his way of looking at things is correct is his goal, of course.
He didn’t say logic is _only_ an organized way of going wrong with confidence. It is completely possible to be perfectly logical, and still come to false conclusions. Just as it’s possible to have fallacious logic, but still come to a true conclusion.
Which does not mean that logic is worthless in the pursuit of truth – it is extremely useful. It’s just not wholly sufficient by itself.
Cogitans,
I’m going to argue your points one by one.
As I’m unsure whom you are referring to:
a. If it’s re:racist marriage, I agree that the view is delusional. I say this as a functioning, sane human being, but, if you need that extra credibility, also as the offspring of a mixed race marriage. I think GRRM’s blog posts make it clear there are bigots and people with bad attitudes on both sides (see:Requires Hate/Winterfox).
b. If you’re addressing the perceived liberal slant in recent Hugo ballots which “necessitated” the Sad Puppies slate to begin with, I’d suggest reading GRRM’s “Where’s the Beef?”. Because there isn’t a slant at all.
But:
You’re arguing for my point. I’m saying they should make it a point to separate themselves from Mr. Day: his slate, and the politics which on some level informed it. They already should have, actually.
Hoops, you have your facts wrong about immigration.
According to the most recent immigration statistics, while Mexico may have the largest percentage by country of immigrants, it only has 28 percent or so of the total number of immigrants. India and China were second and third respectively.
Further, 48 percent of foreign born residents in 2013 were white.
Even the guy who created the first IQ test couldn’t effectively answer the question as to what intelligence really is. When asked he said, “It’s what my test measures.” Not particularly illuminating.
The IQ tests which Day leans on are inherently flawed and culturally biased. Just to take one very simple example, in a “one of these things is not like the other” multiple choice test, you show the testee a baseball, tennis racquet, a hockey stick, and a wrench and ask, “Which item doesn’t belong”, and that person has never seen baseball, tennis, hockey, or indoor plumbing requiring a wrench, they’re not going to do so well, are they?
Further, the skillset required to live day-to-day in, say, Namibia is very different from that required to get through a day in New York City. Or backwoods Kentucky. Or Mumbai. Etc. So if Day were dropped into a culture and area completely unknown and unfamiliar (Taliban-controlled Afghanistan, say), how well would he do? Indeed, how long would he last? Would he be less “intelligent” for getting a hand chopped off, or being made the raw material for one family’s dinner on some isolated South Pacific island, or getting a leg chewed off by the local fauna in the Nile delta? By one measure, of course not. By the ultimate measure, definitely. And how does it relate to IQ?
In other words, his arguments are slippery, to put it mildly. And his arguments about women–for whom there is scientific evidence showing they take far more of a long-range view when choosing mates, as opposed to men who the evidence often indicates really do choose partners based on “who they want to f***”. And these same women don’t think ahead but let themselves swoon over the wonderful and masculine Richard Nixon, or Lyndon Johnson? Uh huh, sure.
To be blunt, he seems to cherry-picks his science to support his pet views, despite his veneer of “sticking to the science”.
_The Bell Curve_. 1994 book about how much of a role genetics plays in intelligence. Widely criticized as racist.
We make a huge fetish out of voting, and hide from ourselves that (at least here in the US) very few of our votes actually count for anything any more. But, of course, you are a horrible, horrible person if you say that.
Examples: I live in Texas, and in 2016 my states electoral votes are going to go for whoever the Republican nominee is. Doesn’t matter who I support, or who i vote for, or even if I vote at all. The result is already baked into the cake, and everyone knows it, but no one dares to admit it.
Likewise, everyone who lives in California knows that their presidential vote is going for the Democrat nominee, no matter who that is, and no matter whether they like it or not individually.
Good grief, it’s not just the presidential race – last election, out of 435 congressional seats, barely 40 were considered competitive – in many, there wasn’t even an opponent on the ballot. That means for 90% of the country or thereabouts, the votes don’t count for squat – the system runs itself.
And yet we love to tell ourselves what a horror it would be if some people were denied the right to play in this fake little pantomime show we call voting.
“The Bell Curve” by Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein was a badthink book about badthink questions such as “Are there differences in IQ between ‘racial groups’. Any mention of ‘bell curve’ is prima facie evidence that one is a vile racist….or something like that.
Any attempt to explain it’s relevance in terms of mathmatics is just more coded hate speech
Basically you can take any of the SJW talking points about LC and Vox and substitute “Charles Murray and Richard Herrnstein”, and you wont need to go into the archives.
Of course, if you go into the archives you will see that the present kerfluffle isn’t anywhere near to being a new phenomenon
Wes,
It’s true that a single vote doesn’t make any difference in winner take all systems when you have lasting majorities and large numbers of people. At the same time, if it matters so little, then who cares if we let everyone vote?
I think if you want to enfranchise voters better, then you don’t do winner takes all. You’d have to do a proportional representation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation.
Wes,
It’s true that a single vote doesn’t make any difference all by itself in winner take all systems when you have lasting majorities and large numbers of people. At the same time, if it matters so little, then who cares if we let everyone vote?
I think if you want to enfranchise voters better, then you don’t do winner takes all. You’d have to do a proportional representation: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation.
You think Vox Day’s arguments, as expressed herein are delusional. Including that funny notion that scientific evidence should not be held hostage to religious dogma politics. Good to know.
What if I decide that your opinions are delusional? Does that mean I can request every decent person disavow you and distance myself from you before their programmes or art can be accepted? Because that would be very interesting, don’t you think? I could have fun with that.
Re: That patronizing “where’s the beef” post by GRRM… You’ll want to limit your usage to readers who both admire GRRM and are swayed by arguments-from-authority. Otherwise, Mr. Martin’s “I didn’t see it, so it never happened” post is only going to torque your interlocutor off. Victim-blaming rarely goes down well.
Aaaaand you could not rise to the bait, pay attention, figure out where he’s made an error by accepting a false premise, or failed to connect a correct premise to the next one in the chain or some combination of the above.
And then call him on it. As Mr Brown has amply demonstrated here, Mr. Beale will respond to civil inquiry with civil discourse. I have found that such discussions with an opponent outside my weight class (rhetorically speaking) do wonders for clarifying my own ideas; what I believe and why I believe them. Especially if I very strongly disagree with them!
So, when you write that Vox Day is deliberately trolling you, it says rather more about how your mind works than perhaps you’d care to reveal. But it doesn’t have to. You’re always welcome to join us on the intellectual freedom side of the force.
Ahhh….I need to do a bit more research on why Mormans were loathed, but odds are the polygamy element played a part. The North / South divide is, however a poor choice for “extreme positions”. There ought to be some ability to distinguish between holding an opinion that diverges strongly from the local zeitgeist, and say, going out and jay hawking (cheers!) or hunting down fugitive slaves (boo!).
Not to mention being able to identify an extreme position: “I think Black people are inherently inferiour and should not be allowed to hold positions of authority” (extreme in Northern circles even in the 1800s) vs. ” I think this black person is an uncivilized incompetent and I should be free to call her such if I’ve got the facts on my side”
The fact that irrational opinions (“ancient astronaut theorists say, yes!”) ought to be extreme is wanhope.
“Mormons” with an “o” 🙂 Polygamy only came into play in Illinois. Before that time, they were mobbed and hounded out of Missouri because of politics. They were anti-slavery, and they tended to vote together. And they message about other religions that some took objection to. So politics and religions. Geez, the most calming topics ever.
The problem as far as I can see is not that incompetent work was having a bright light shown on it. The problem was that race was brought into a discussion as if it was actually some relevant factor. Unless someone can look at an individual’s genome and epigenome specifically, and then how that’s interplayed with the environment, and then make a substantive causal connection to this one case, using genetics to make blanket statements about an individual’s ideas is a red herring of a large order, an ad hominem giganticus. And it’s compounded by the abusive fallacy, especially since there’s no data for the red herring in the first place.
Objective data is beyond dispute; Day’s interpretation leaves something to be desired. This applies go GRRM’s post as well; he dismantled the “liberal slant” myth using transparent data. It’s not about subscribing to authority. The difference is that GRRM’s conclusions make sense.
Feel free to distance all decent people from any art of mine you come across. Let me know how fun it is, too. I want postcards.
Except that what he said is, in fact, perfectly defensible.
Logic, reduced, is simply a chain. IF you get your a prioris wrong, or otherwise make some little mistake, one can flow seamlessly and logically to the wrong conclusion, with great confidence. Any programmer is painfully aware of this dynamic, unless they are a total noob.
Logic depends on the inputs. GIGO.
For the sake of hugos or any other award content not character should be the sole premise of judging.
I’m going to disagree. It doesn’t matter how good of a writer he was, Che was a vile, unrepentant mass murderer who should never receive an award. There is such a thing as “beyond the pale”. To declare otherwise is as absurd as saying that content doesn’t matter at all.
The SJW’s are right that some character defects disqualify one from consideration in a civil society. It’s their assessment of what is a disqualifying character defect that’s horridly flawed.
A productive discussion starts by ruling out both extremes, and looks at “what is beyond the pale? What is a ridiculous character standard?”
This was an interesting read. I wish you had dug a bit deeper in the interview. When I surfed the net for info on Day the quotation that really scared me was this:
The laws [Stand Your Ground Laws’ are not there to let whites “just shoot people like me, without consequence, as long as they feel threatened by my presence”, those self-defense laws have been put in place to let whites defend their lives and their property from people, like her, who are half-savages engaged in attacking them.
This is an argument about when it is appropriate for white people to kill black people. Calling a black women a half-savage is racist enough, but others might have a higher threshold for when they cease to engage in arguments. Making public arguments about when it is okay for whites to kill “half-savages” really ought to scare people given what is happening in our country. Turn to ethics. Turn to faith. Either will provide plenty of reasons for why people should not be warmly welcomed and treated seriously when they speak this way. How do “whites” protect themselves from “half-savages”? When Day’s discourse cannot be distinguished from white supremacists it is hard to give him a free pass by claiming irony or sarcasm.
I also noticed that Day was not asked about his views and comments on gay, lesbian, and trans individuals. Interesting omission.
I agree with you that we should not demonize our opponents. I also think people who talk about “whites” having the right to stand their ground against “half-savages” have lost all credibility.
There’s nothing to read into any omission because this wasn’t meant to be an exhaustive interview. I was primarily interested in clarifying his views on women and race. I had enough with those two. In fact, there was plenty more about both of those topics I could have asked but cut short.
I thought your post was primarily advancing the argument that Day is not really the devil many have painted him to be. I also read the section on the rhetoric of offense as your advocacy on this question. So it struck me as odd that the most mean spirited words Day has spoken and written were not included. I cannot get past my antipathy for a person who would respond as he did to a gay youth suicide. I do appreciate thoughtful writing such as your entry and the response of Matthew David Surridge. You both treat others with dignity and respect and that is really commendable. While I am with you on not demonizing Day, I am not willing to take him seriously or treat him with respect. My fear is that instead of helping him find a more ethical way to conduct his life, treating him as a reasonable interlocutor and providing him with a platform to clarify his views just draws us all into his latest Machiavellian scheming.
So removing the vote from women – that is, removing from 50% of the population the choice of what kind of government they would like – is INCREASING women’s freedom? You plan to increase their freedom by removing their freedom to participate in their own destiny? Your logic does not resemble our earth logic.
I see what you’re saying. I agree that examples of the kind of rhetoric I talked about might have made the point clearer. And those examples would have surely included some of what you reference.
http://alphagameplan.blogspot.ch/2013/10/the-wages-of-female-education.html
For the record, this is the post where Vox stated that the attempt on Malala’s life was ‘perfectly rational.’
I’m not sure how a reasonable mind could read this and come to the conclusion that Vox was merely suggesting that the Taliban’s methods were merely strategically viable.
The entire posting is a long explanation of why female education is dangerous, capped off with a conclusion that, ‘in light of the strong correlation between female education and demographic decline,’ the shooting might have, in Vox’s view, been perfectly rational. His summation (more or less) of this argument in another article essentially confirms this:
“One wonders how low birth rates have to fall in civilized countries before the elites begin to realize that the Taliban may not, in fact, be the stupid ones with regards to this particular matter.”
These are not the words of a man who merely thinks that the Taliban’s choice of terror tactics was cunning. These are the words of a man who at the very least believes that the Taliban’s agenda of intimidating women out of education (to help improve the fertility rates!!!1111) serves to benefit their society.
Perhaps Vox was suggesting that the Taliban could have improved their society’s chances at fighting back western cultural expansion by ridding themselves of the ‘impediment’ of female education…? Perhaps THAT was the “logical syllogism” that Vox observed?
Really, no ,matter how you spin it, the context makes it clear that Vox was endorsing both the means and the ends of the Taliban, and it is a mark of his moral cowardice that he chose to hide this in this interview.
Name-calling? Crank was a very carefully chosen word.
I have known cranks and they may be intelligent but they hold outlandish opinions supported by an incomplete understanding of facts they use to try to promote their theories. His genetics theory is junk science and there are other examples you illustrated.
“Crank” is a pejorative term used for a person who holds an unshakable belief that most of his or her contemporaries consider to be false.[1] A crank belief is so wildly at variance with those commonly held as to be ludicrous. Cranks characteristically dismiss all evidence or arguments which contradict their own unconventional beliefs, making rational debate a futile task, and rendering them impervious to facts, evidence, and rational inference.
Common synonyms for “crank” include crackpot and kook. A crank differs from a fanatic in that the subject of the fanatic’s obsession is either not necessarily widely regarded as wrong or not necessarily a “fringe” belief. Similarly, the word quack is reserved for someone who promotes a medical remedy or practice that is widely considered to be ineffective; this term, however, does not imply any deep belief in the idea or product they are attempting to sell. “